The right way to loosen her neck/get her round...?

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Permalink Reply by Geoffrey Pannell on January 16, 2010 at 5:49pm

I'd go back to the first instructor if I were you!! Gettting the horse round is more about riding the horse forward to the hand than useing the hand alone. Remember the horse must be strong enough in the back and top line before it can come round and work towards being on the bit. Cheers Geoffrey

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Permalink Reply by Catherine on January 17, 2010 at 8:38am

yes, I agree. All of the instructors I have worked with always emphasize quality of gaits, tempo, and rythm to be able to get the horse round. You shouldn't feel like you have to force the horse into the bridle, but that the horse is willing to move forward into the connection. Good luck!

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Permalink Reply by slc2 on January 17, 2010 at 10:12am

I was just introduced to dressage about a year ago, and have started getting into it and am interested in improving the multiple things I know I'm doing wrong!

A funny way of putting it, but not too far from the truth, LOL.

Under a few different instructors, I was under the impression I needed to keep a firm contact with my outside rein and a slightly opening feel with the inside rein, giving multiple half halts with my outside rein as necessary to get the horse's head to come down.

Wellll.....That is something one does occasionally, yes....

Plus a good forward gait to move the horse into your hands, it basically seemed to work, most of the time.

The old timers used to say, 'forward, forward, forward, forward and out of trouble'. A book will tell you every moment in the saddle, you hold your reins like they're going around the throat of a newborn baby bird, and that you never move your legs or kick or do .... welll... ANYTHING.

Most of the time, riders coming into dressage have a long period of reaching toward dressage, and it is a long time before the person is really 'doing dressage' unless they're getting into a very intensive, daily program with a ton of supervsion.

Where am I going with this? Not where you might expect. It's just going to take time, and you're not always going to exactly be following the book as you retrain your horse while learning it yourself. Further, if someone tells you, 'why that's so wrong', well, it might be, or it might not be. If you feel, 'well, this doesn't seem right to me', it might very well be that it is just something that you need to do at the moment, in order to move forward.

You're going to, yes, in fact, be doing things just to get your horse to get his nose out of the sky, to teach him to give to the reins, which he may never have been taught to do, and at the Spanish Riding School in Vienna, no, they don't have problems like that and do things like that, because their horses were never ridden any other way, and their riders were trained in dressage before they took on a baby horse.

Recently a new instructor told me something I've never been told to do: when the horse is sticking her head up in the air and being stiff, halt and take a lot of rein equally in both hands (felt like 8 pounds or so, maybe more?) and just hang on, not moving, not giving in, until the horse starts to chew and eventually drops its head.

This is indeed, something that one occasionally has to do. Is it right? Wrong? Well, again, it depends. Even with a fully trained horse, if he's really having a naughty day, I might do this. And if the horse is really feeling frisky and naughty, he might stand there and pull for 35 seconds, LOL.

Is it how I would ALWAYS want to get my horse on the bit for the rest of his life? Probably not, but for a little while, I might have to.

What you need to learn, and you will learn this, is that what the instructor tells you to do on Wednesday, you may not have to do two weeks from Wednesday. So keep in mind, that things will change. Your horse will get more trained, you'll learn more, things will change.

My horse tried backing up but I just gave a bit of leg.

Leg is always good. LOL. Just make sure you're bringing the horse up to the bit with your legs and then asking him to give, rather than actually pulling and kicking simultaneously

Although it worked after about 35 seconds of holding firm, it felt kind of drastic.

This is not at all unusual with a horse that hasn't been taught to give to the bit.

Now with some horses, no matter how much you work with them, they get mad if you take on both reins in exactly the same amount at the same time. Some of them, you need to just be a little different on one rein, a little less pressure, a little more bending in the neck on that side, when you do this.

A horse gets hard on one rein because he's crooked, and as time goes on, you'll learn how to fix that - it's not what you think - you don't move the rear end to straighten a horse. You move the front end, but you'll find out about that later.

Why have I never heard of this as a way of getting a horse "round" or at least getting her to accept the bit more and not stick her head in the air - what is the right way?

There is not really a 'right' way, except that over time, it should get easier and more subtle and require less and less effort, without getting the horse 'behind the bit' (you feel no pressure on your hands, you should feel some pressure on yoru hands from the feel of the horse's mouth - neither rein should continuously hang down in a loop, you're going for an even, consistent, steady connection). HOW much time, dpeends on how often you get help, what you do between lessons, how the horse is built, and how diligently you practice.

Thanks for any help - my next lesson with this guy is tomorrow morning and I wanted to be more prepared!

Good luck with your horse and have a lot of fun!

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Permalink Reply by Danielle Zerbonne on January 17, 2010 at 10:28am

Thanks very much for the replies!

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Permalink Reply by Queenrider on January 19, 2010 at 9:35am

This is a training method used by Phillipe Karl and it does work! You should read his book! (available on amazon.com) This is very interesting stuff. I audited his clinic last July. i went home and tried his methods and it worked wonderfully without stress for the horse or rider. Now I use his methods a lot and they work every time on both the horses I ride. My own horse was a 3 year old last year that I had broken and he seemed to be stuck in his training. I started using the PK method and everything clicked for him and he started advancing in his training. I also ride a 14 year old gelding that belongs to my friend. This horse has improved dramatically and is now very light and responsive.

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Permalink Reply by Danielle Zerbonne on January 19, 2010 at 12:53pm

Great to know, thank you!

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Permalink Reply by A_Sassy_Temptation on January 21, 2010 at 2:12pm

SLC2, has a wonderful way of saying things..really. I am not familiar with dressage, I ride western pleasure so I am used to not having rein contact..but I can tell you that a horse cannot be round and collected properly without motion, and as Goeffrey Pannell said a strong back and topline. I have noticed that many horses with no dressage training in the past (best freind is a 3 day eventer) do seem to be confused in most cases when asked for contact and bending, my friends has started to used a surcingle, and tie down to allow her horse to feel the pressure, give to it, and release himself on the lunge line, then she gives the same que with her hands asking the horse to stretch at the wither..it has worked well for her, and her trot and walk are good from what I have heard.

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Permalink Reply by slc2 on January 21, 2010 at 9:46pm

I generally shy away from using much force, except when absolutely necessary, or using draw reins or any other device. I also try to stay away from a fixed formula especially if it emphasizes just rein use instead of using 'all the aids, all the time'. I avoid lifting the hands up, fixing them with too much force, or lowering and spreading my hands.

I think of it as every single ride is like making bread. I can't make bread only of flour or only of water. It is how I mix and balance the flour, water, sugar and yeast. I need all of these, like I need every part of the training pyramid, and just like I need ALL my aids, ALL the time, leg, seat and hand. Even more, it is the building I have to do - from proofing the yeast to kneading to raising to putting the bread in the oven. If I skip steps I am not going to get good bread.

It's going to sound odd, but I also avoid this whole 'release' business of working the rein til the horse 'gives' and then dropping the rein. I don't ever want the horse to drop the bit, and I shouldn't ever be dropping the contact during periods of work like this.

Why don't I follow along with the 'droppers'? Because in 40 years, despite all the great claims, I've never seen it work, no matter how 'skilled' the practitioner was. Ever. Yup. If anyone ever questions it, they always say, 'well then you're not doing it right'. But I watch the 'dropper' experts, and I am not comfortable with their results. I see incorrect work.

You'll never see them doing it at the Spanish Riding School, this dropping stuff. There has to be a reason for that. There, they work on keeping a steady contact, continually.

Contact is not a 'punishment' or a 'strain' that the horse has to get 'rewarded' for putting up with for 2 seconds by tossing it away. In dressage, contact is supposed to be the communication line between the horse and rider. It's necessary to keep the communication like connected!

In fact, when I used to take lessons, I used to hear the instructor shout out, 'Stop punishing that horse! Stop dropping that contact!' if I 'rewarded' the horse by dropping the contact.

What I found was, by maintaining a steady hand to mouth connection, I had better trained horses. They were more balanced, trusting and confident. They were steadier on the bit. They were more supple. As they moved up the levels of dressage, they progressed far less stressfully, and with far less confusion than the other horses and riders around me.

Instead of feeling the contact come and go, actually, I want him to feel like a bungie cord, so the connection gets more flexible, but never drops, so I always feel a 'connection' through the reins.

During a single ride, I start the ride with a walk on a long rein. The horse should stretch his neck down and loosen his back muscles. But I never said 'no rein'. Even during this time, I establish a contact. If contact is uncomfortable, something the horse needs a 'break' from, I am not riding properly, and I have to change.

During the remainder of the ride, I don't drop the contact. Why? Because this is our communication line. If you want a conversation, don't hang up the phone. As the ride goes on, it is always building up toward a crescendo, like a piece of music. As I work, there is a meaning to the order of the exercises. Each one builds on the previous one, almost like the training pyramid being recapitulated each day, first establishing the rhythm, establishing the contact, building and building, so as each minute passes, the contact is better and builds to the finale. If any muscles are tensing, the horse will need to stretch down again, go frankly forward, or may need a suppling exercise like leg yield or later half pass.

We start the work part of the ride with exercises the horse already knows. None of the exercises - leg yield, shoulder in, half pass, counter canter, are practiced to do it a test. Instead, each one is a tool to shape a better horse in that ride, to create each part of the training pyramid.

When he is as forward, supple and well connected as I possibly can get him, THAT is when I work on what he is learning. Just a few tries in each direction, and then immediately after even ATTEMPTING to do the new work, the horse gets to stretch down, but still with that connection. A lot of pats on the neck and verbal praise finishes out the ride!

If I drop the contact, I am punishing him for all his considerable efforts, and then the process has to start over again.

I learned a long, long time ago, 'Don't punish my horse'. The contact is his friend. If it cannot be maintained steadily, something is not right.

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Permalink Reply by A_Sassy_Temptation on January 21, 2010 at 9:59pm

that does make sense aswell..This horse is abused though..and has learned harsh work on the mouth and "contact" as a punishment..to my knowledge..so giving him the release does seem to work for him..

With the contact as not being a "punishment" what does that make western pleasure riders who ride with no rein contact? I mean we ride with contact (I ride with spurs, my horse knows if I lay both spurs on him and bump them that means his head needs to go down, I roll my spur on my outside leg and kiss means lope/canter along with moving his hip for the cant, putting steady pressure on his sides equally tells him to back up, thent he usual shoulder in, hip out ect ect, roll backs)

But I do release that contact once the said thing I want is done (IE I want him to back a full horse lenght, I put spur on, then once I get the action, I drop the contact) Does that mean I am punishing?

I by all means see where you are coming from, and think that you have a good concept, I am just interested in your training technique.

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Permalink Reply by slc2 on January 21, 2010 at 10:55pm

I don't feel that you should be training like I do, in dressage. Nor do I agree that I should be training like you do! Western is very, very different from dressage, it is a totally different system. The goals are different, the methods are different. The word 'collection' is used in Western and saddle seat, but it doesn't mean the same thing as in dressage.

I rode Western for years before I went into dressage, and I rode reiners after I had done dressage for many years. There's a horse, a bridle and a saddle, but other than that, very, very different.

that does make sense aswell..This horse is abused though..and has learned harsh work on the mouth and "contact" as a punishment..to my knowledge..so giving him the release does seem to work for him..

I've worked with a lot of horses who were taught that even a touch of the rein was something that they should be afraid of, and that it was a warning of something much worse. They usually can be retrained to go in dressage, in about a month or two. The lady I work with, is something of a genius at 'bringing out' horses with this problem, she has fantastic hands. She urges them to go forward, she bends their neck a little this way and that, the forward motion 'unlocks' those tight stiff muscles. A turn on the forehand, done properly, or a leg yield, can help to loosen up the rest of their body - crossing their legs loosens up their hips, bending loosens their neck, and that helps the body through the ribs to bend...but unlike western bending, the contact is kept all the time with both reins while doing this.

With the contact as not being a "punishment" what does that make western pleasure riders who ride with no rein contact?

It makes him a Western rider. :) He's supposed to ride with no rein contact. I was talking about the dressage trainers who preach that contact is bad and that dressage riders should be chuckin' the reins at the horse's head all the time, to 'reward' him.

I mean we ride with contact (I ride with spurs, my horse knows if I lay both spurs on him and bump them that means his head needs to go down, I roll my spur on my outside leg and kiss means lope/canter along with moving his hip for the cant, putting steady pressure on his sides equally tells him to back up, thent he usual shoulder in, hip out ect ect, roll backs)

It just isn't the kind of contact trained dressage people use.

But I do release that contact once the said thing I want is done (IE I want him to back a full horse lenght, I put spur on, then once I get the action, I drop the contact) Does that mean I am punishing?

It means you are a western rider, riding like a western rider. It's totally different. :)

But too, when I say contact here, I am referring to a connection through the reins only, that is contact. Not contact with a spur or leg. Contact in the context of a connection that is steady and consistent, from the hand to the horse's mouth.

Trained dressage riders don't use the same system western riders do. The western systems rely on signals that are more like 'cues' and less like what dressage people call 'aids' - Western riders use signal-like cues, these are basically one thing done with one leg, one rein. We don't do that in dressage. It's just not the same.

Everything we do in dressage is done with the understanding that contact is always maintained, that the horse is constantly getting pushed toward the bit. This means urging him to forward motion that encourages him to stretch his neck out to take up the slack in the reins, so there is no slack and the reins don't hang down. HOW MUCH contact there is, meaning how much 'weight' the rider feels in his hands, is determined by a lot of things - the ideal the rider is going for ultimately, is a light feel, but in the beginning, when the horse's hind legs are not supple and the horse is not balanced, the contact won't be the best it will in the future be.

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Permalink Reply by A_Sassy_Temptation on January 22, 2010 at 8:57am

that again makes sense, I have nothing do to with dressage, or jumping. I am into the APHA/AQHA stuff. I do ride english in Hunter under saddle, but that is far from dressage.

She has been taught this by a reputable dressage instructor and competitor..but I think its a matter of what a person feels comfortable for and what. The way she has done things with the tie down is known over here, lots of people do it ( I don't, but I use other aids). It seems to work for this horse.

One more question..do you see 3 day eventers having more "problems" with putting there head down onto the bit, then a plain dressage rider? Iam just curious as I can see it as the horse may get confused possibly by stadium and xcountry where they need to go over them jumps, see where there going, and in some aspects go fast, collection is not necessary..for 2 of the events, and then for the other event be collected, slower than on the xcountry, but usually the dressage ring is on the xcountry field. Its obviosuly possible, but I just wanted to know..sorry this is going off topic.

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Permalink Reply by slc2 on January 23, 2010 at 8:36pm

One more question..do you see 3 day eventers having more "problems" with putting there head down onto the bit,

I can't answer the question except by saying that getting the horse's head down and in has absolutely and completely nothing to do with being on the bit. Not one single thing. On the bit is not a position of the head.

While it's true that some eventers are stilll struggling to get their dressage work up to the quality they need to win today, the more the person believes on the bit is a head position and the key is to get that head down and in, the more trouble they will get into trying to do dressage, whether they event or just do dressage. That idea messes people up more than any other.

It's entirely possible to both jump and gallop AND do dressage, and most eventers are very, very good at it. In schooling they often will do horse control exercises, really work on transitions and circling and half halts, and get their horse very handy. On cross country they will very often trot fences or even walk them, you will see them especially walk and walk and walk in the water obstacles, just to teach the horse to look at the fences, and to relax the horse so he is not rushing because he is anxious.

then aIam just curious as I can see it as the horse may get confused possibly by stadium and xcountry where they need to go over them jumps,

A horse can see all around him no matter what position his head is in; his eyes are on the sides of his face, so he can always see a lot. The problem is not vision, but that with jumping, the horse needs to stretch his neck/head forward to get over the jump. He can use his shoulder and back muscles better to jump if he is given the freedom to move and stretch his neck out.

see where there going, and in some aspects go fast,

The event horse at lower levels, doesn't go extremely fast. He may go over cross country in little more than a strong canter. The better he gets, the more he goes up the eventing levels, the faster the cross country gait is. Some people very obviously gather up the horse a few strides from the jump, some people come back for the jump in such a smooth, natural way, you don't even really notice they have collected up. Keep in mind...collection does not equal slow, or even slower.

collection is not necessary..

Collection is crucial in and is used in cross country and jumping for the same reasons as in dressage, to gather the horse, to balance the horse, to package the horse with his hind legs and haunches up under him and lighten his front end.

for 2 of the events, and then for the other event be collected, slower

Collection is not about going slow. Collection is one thing and one thing only - a change in the SHAPE of the horse's stride. The joints of the hind quarters and hind legs, shoulders, knees, all bend more, the stride reaches a little more upward, and if you put a light on each hoof, you'd see a rounder, higher arc for the flight path of the hooves.

In dressage, collected gaits are not like any other riding sport. They are energetic, active, and the strides come just as fast and with just as much energy as the extended gaits. The tempo is the same, the energy is the same, the only thing that changes is the shape of the stride.

The collected horse covers less ground because the stride shape changes, and goes slightly more upward.

but usually the dressage ring is on the xcountry field.

Any fit horse is bound to be excited during the dressage phase of eventing, and sometimes they toss their head, champ more quickly or excitedly at the bit, or even spurt up or kick up their heels when the rider uses his legs.

Dressage usually comes first, when they are just getting used to the competition area, and they know what comes next and are excited. Good event horses are fitter than race horses, and ready to run. Quite a few are very impatient and excited during their dressage tests.

Dressage for eventers isn't judged in a fussy, picky way. There is a little tolerance built in for the excitement and fitness of the horses. They are expected to be up and on their toes.

I never get too worried about how other people ride....LOL. I always think they are riding typical for the level they are at, and doing the best they can.

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